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For a Jr. If the 1st Name is The Same But Middle Different, Are They a 2nd Instead? Confused...

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7-Jan-10 12:14 am

 People keep saying you can't be a Jr. without the same first and middle name. Hubby wants to name the baby after him (first name) and said I can have the name I like as the middle name if we have a boy. I know a lot of guys who have their dad's first name but different middle names-now would this make them a 2nd, 3rd, etc. rather than a Jr.? And why is that rule in place, why can't you be a Jr. with just the first name-I mean sorry but to me it defeats the purpose if you can't call them Jr. but yet they still have the same first name. Personally if I have a boy, I'd rather have it have its own name but hubby seems pretty smitten with the idea of a Jr. and said if we put the name I want as the middle name, we can still call him Jr. even if he truly wasn't one. So I dunno what do you guys think? Would the baby still be a 2nd? Or what? I'm not really fond of his middle name and would like it to have a more modern middle name to call the baby by to avoid confusion. Help! 

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7-Jan-10 12:28 am

So there are quite a few jrs and seconds, thirds, etc in my family but I am not sure if this holds true outside my fam.  Within my fam - jrs are only juniors if the first middle last name are exactly the same and the boy is being name after his own father.  And we have a couple seconds in the family but they were seconds and not juniors because they were named after someone other than their own father.  For instance, one of my cousins in  XYZ the second but he was named after his grandfather. 

I know that in either case the names are exactly the same and Jr should not be noted unless the names are exactly the same. 

Have you thought of using DH's name as the middle name instead?  That way you can pick out a modern FN and still honor you DH.  Plus your child might feel less pressure to name his kid the same thing. IDK - just a thought.

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7-Jan-10 1:25 am

 Interesting, thanks for the reply. I just seem to know a bunch of people-like my ex (wish he'd rot but that's another story lol) that has the same 1st but diff. middle names. And hmmm interesting point there at the end-that does bring pressure to create more kids with the same name. I like the name Matt (DH's name), and his middle name is Daniel (surely not my favorite) but it's so common and boring. His mom sent me an email that since I named my son from a previous relationship that if we have a boy I should just make it a Jr. to make him happy. Not sure how he would feel to have his name as part of the middle name hmm. Tried to ask him if he wanted to name it his full name or just his 1st name and he still hasn't said. So if we put my name in there in between his it'd be Matthew Shane Nathan Ross.....and I guess not Jr. but since he has such an extremely common first AND last name I think it needs a less common at least middle name, ya know? Or a less common first name at least since I swear I went from a pretty unique last name to a quite common one. Hmmm men-he wasn't even into the whole Jr. thing till people asked and I kidded around about it. I hope I have a girl-then we won't have the name drama and he likes my girl name I picked lol. 

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7-Jan-10 11:03 am

This is the way I understand it:

 Same first name w/ different middle is considered a junior.

Same first name w/ same middle name as father is a second, or a third (depending if the Grandfather is the exact same).

 

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7-Jan-10 12:22 pm

Rein&Sonshines:

This is the way I understand it:

 Same first name w/ different middle is considered a junior.

Same first name w/ same middle name as father is a second, or a third (depending if the Grandfather is the exact same).

 

Agree 

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Lena

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7-Jan-10 1:35 pm

To the best of my understanding the full name has to be the same in order to have a junior.  My BIL has the same first name as his dad (my FIL) but a different middle name and he is not a Jr.

This is what I found online: (link)

Question: In order for a son to become a jr does he have to have the same middle name as his father?

Answer: Yes. "Junior" signifies that the entire name is the same. The only difference is the use of "Jr."

If the whole name is repeated, but it's not the son (let's say it's the grandson), then it's II ("the second") and not "junior."

Hope that helps!!

 

Naomi

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7-Jan-10 2:37 pm

People get called Junior for different reasons, sometimes because their initials are J.R, othertimes because ther are a little copy of their dad.

Going with the 2nd reason, you could still call a DS Junior, even if DS's name was Fred and the dad's name was Bob, simply because they are a little physical copy (not necessarily a look-alike).

I wouldn't stress and if you want to have DS as Junior, just do it!

~Naomi.

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7-Jan-10 6:08 pm

For both cases, all names need to be the same.  Some religions do not use Junior, but use 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ect.

My DH, his father, and his grandfather all have the same first names, different middle names.  None of them are Jr. or the 3rd.

I don't know why the rule was created, but the practice of naming children with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on was so there is no confusion between fathers and sons in the "old days".  Think of all of the kings from medieval times.  I don't think any of them had middle names, and they just were known by their first names.

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7-Jan-10 9:04 pm

 about.com states:

Jr. or II?

Monday June 19, 2006
In the About Genealogy forum this week, a reader explains that she wants to name her son after her husband's great-great grandfather - a wonderful way to honor his ancestor! The question, however, is whether this would make their son a II - Jacob Miles Burnum or Jacob Miles Burnum II?

In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased.

I'm not an expert in naming etiquette, however, so here's what others have to say on the subject:

From Behind the Name - "Junior is used to distinguish a son with the same name as his father. The following conditions apply:

  1. The Junior must be a son of the father, not a grandson.
  2. The names must be exactly the same, including the middle name.
  3. The father must still be living.

'II' is used whenever any close relative, including for example a grandfather or a great-uncle, shares the same name as the child."

Of course, there are also many who argue whether people move up the ladder as family members die i.e. Junior becomes Senior when the father dies, and III becomes Junior. Some, such as Miss Manners, say that yes, everyone does move up a notch [Martin, Judith. Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior. Warner Books (1982)] , while others insist that your formal name, including the suffix, does not change. But that's a discussion for another day...

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