re-post- Need serious help w/o+12 try TODAY- anyone pls

(re-posting from Gold bc I'm paranoid and don't have time to gamble w/ ...sorry and thanks in advance for any help) 

Hi there: 

I've had a weird cycle this month but we've abstained for 10 days and have both been religious about diet and supps (I question whether I'll be able to get my husband to abstain like that again).  Plus, the happy coincidence of my ovulating + the new moon starting today seems too fortuitous to pass up TTC our girl!  But, other signals are quite mixed.  Here are the deets/issues:

1- Persona fertility monitor did not given me the little egg symbol at 9 am today BUT when I was next able to test at 3 pm the First Response test gave me a very clear darker second line compared to the reference line (yesterday at 5:30 pm I had a stronger second line but not yet equal to the reference).  (btw, I've been using the Persona for a few years and it has happened only twice before that I ovulated w/o getting an egg symbol.  But, normally I get 1-2 egg symbols at ovul per cycle).  Interestingly, at 8 pm today when I did a First Response test, both lines were exactly the same (after the new line being distinctively darker than the first at 3pm) 

2- a tiny bit of ewcm appeared yesterday at 8 am and today at 3pm, then quite a decent glob today at 9 pm (which, oddly, gave a v low ph reading of 3.5, I know, dangerous). nothing much at 11 pm but still wet and cervix soft (and high)

3- ph has generally been in the zone (although got to 5 yesterday, today it was at 4.14 at 3 pm and 3.50 at 9 pm  then 3.95 at 11pm-- yes dangerously low, and after I calibrated the digital to make sure I got most accurate).  I guess I will lay off CL etc since I have to take sudafed which may also lower.  anything else I should do to lower if it drops out of the zone?

4- temps misleading since I was at a big party last night and my temp is always high the morning after I drink any alcohol. But, otherwise they have been below the coverline.  Generally, my temps have skewed on the high side this cycle.

I didn't think I would go for the o+12 initially because I generally have a slow rise after ovulation but since we abstained because we couldn't be together and now I think I feel a tiny bit more in the know of what to watch for etc internally.  Also, both my boys were conceived thru frequent BD to ovulation so I think I need to try o+12.

To make matters worse, I'm afraid I may have caught the flu. can't recall if I saw that sways one way or another.

So, I am trying to figure out which timing would be best. Counting from 3pm, I could check if my cm has dried at 6 am and BD then (last chance before dh goes to work).  The only problem is if I was actually ovulating at 9 pm when I had the big ewcm, I can't wait to bd at 9 am and my husband is away til at least 5:30 pm.  I'm sort of thinking that since I had the fading opk at 8pm vs the v strong at 3 pm, splitting the difference at 6 could work-- just worried about that later good ewcm. Since I also feel crappy from possible flu, I was going to take the 12-hr Sudafed before I go to bed now ..

PLEASE HELP!  I'm sorry I did not write earlier but I was traveling today  -- in case Tamara is away already, anyone please share your thoughts!!  I joined Gold just now in hopes this can get quick attention, THANKS! 

bump.  am worried that taking the 12-hr sudafed before bed will dry me up for when I check o+12 timing for bd at 6 tomorrow a.m.and mask whatever cm I'd need to gauge - so I will probably set an alarm for 3 am or something to check if cm and cervix is indicating we go for it and then take the sudafed then.

Will check here in the a.m.-- pls if anyone sees this, let me know your thoughts! 

Read up on O+12 again here: http://www.in-gender.com/cs/forums/t/37676.aspx.

If I was you I wouldn't take sudafed until after you have confirmed O+12 from your cm shift. Since you are having EWCM... wait till it goes at least to creamy... mine skipped the creamy phase and went right to dry... just make sure it is dry and not watery. You will need to check often- probably every hour.

Once it shifts... MARK THE TIME then check again after an hour so that you are confident that it has... then take sudafed, just in case... BD within 8 hours of the first time you suspected the change.

You'll have to keep checking your ph and take care of that until o is confirmed by temp spike. But it sounds like your pH is good to go.

Sounds Awesome! Blowing us some pink dust! 

Thanks a *trillion* for your response! 

As it happens, at 11 pm my cm was going creamy then I just checked at 12:45 am and it was definitely creamy/scant. I worked out the different scenarios -- whether o-ing at noon, 3 pm 6 pm or even 8 pm (when I saw the last ewcm) -- and all point to a 6 am BD working within the O+20 window except for the last, which would be O+10 (and even then, I could probably get my husband to delay an hour).  So I thiiiink I should be good to go once I confirm cm and temp in the morning (iffy on the latter as I tend to have slow rise and I'm a little sickish) and then bd and monitor/maintain ph.  

Helps so much to write this out and bounce it off someone.  I greatly appreciate it, thanks again!  Anyone else, feel free to chime in.  I might also loop back with any relevant update. 

off to hoping and praying!!!

My sway is below.  My big question is what people think about my o+12 timing and whether to insert another lime tampon tonight before bed since my temps have not yet risen (an idea I saw on someone's successful sway but I haven't seen elsewhere).  (fyi I already did the lime douche to maintain low ph for the four hours post BD this a.m. plus did the lime tampon for 4 hrs after that.)

Let me know what you think!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

O+12 (or 11 or 19, thereabouts) Sway (sorry long, provided for full context): 

So we did it!  I ended up not taking the 12-hr sudafed before I went to bed at 1 am for fear that it would mask the cm I had to gauge first thing this a.m. for the o+12 attempt. 

I woke at 6 and checked everything: temp still hadn't jumped (but I tend to have a slow rise) but cm was just scant and slightly sticky, basically didn't have anything and cervix was definitely not as high and I think less soft (but I have a hard time with this).  Ph was 4.3.  Took sudafed then and we bd'd at 7 (missionary, shallow) after hot showers, with a little canola, fan blowing and prayers.  

ph was 5.3 right after and continued to fluctuate between 3.8 and 5.8 over the next 4 hrs during which time I lime douched as required (there was a brief period of 2.3 that alarmed me but mostly it seemed to go back to the low 5s at the end of each stretch).  Stayed in bed w/hips up for at least 10 mins each douche, sometimes longer but I had to tend to my boys.  A couple times more than 30 mins elapsed and bc I had to take my son to school I couldn't do the tampon til 5 hrs from bd (BUT my ph has been at 3.8 just prior to this lapse so I felt a little better about this).  The lime was irritating so checking cm and cervix again before the tampon wasn't really in the cards.  All ok now.

I generally feel v good about the sway given our pretty strict adherance to the diet and supps, decent execution (though keeping on top of the ph post-attempt was harder/more consuming than I thought it would be timing-wise!) and lucky timing w the new moon, and abstinence (11 days!).  All this is opposite of what I did with my boys and quite extreme for us so I think I can be at peace if it doesn't work out for a girl.  The only sway factor that could have been off was Timing but I am going to just maintain trust in what T and others have said, that diet/supps/ph are more important than timing.   

My biggest question is whether I actually needed to wait longer since I had a glob of ewcm at 8 pm yesterday. At the time I was thinking that my worse case scenario was if my o+12 was 8 am, and while the latest we could BD was 7 am, that would be slightly off-window -- or that I o'd around noon but then 7 am would still be w/in the window.  However, my confidence is shaken because I went back to my old FAM book which said try for a boy one's last day of ewcm and the next day, which would be today.  That and my cervix wasn't drastically different this morning (while lower and less soft, not super firm).  That said, the cm definitely shifted by 11pm.  Also (not sure what kind of faith can be put in looking at opks besides the first positive), while I didn't get an egg on my Persona digital monitor yesterday morning, the bottom line (closest to the tip) was much much darker than the control and then at 6 am today the control was slightly darker.  This was the same trend I saw on the First Response sticks taken at 3 pm yesterday and 1 pm today. 

Last update is that when I took the lime tampon out and cervix is super firm (just not low, in fact could hardly reach but I guess Tamara says not to dwell too much on actual position as much as soft vs firm) and VG is totally dry.  Don't have any sort of cups so I don't really have any way of testing CM ph, I am that dry.  I've continued drinking CL just in case but I sort of worry I could get too low on ph since that has happened before.  

** What I want to know now is whether I need to sleep with a lime tampon tonight (to tide me over til temps rise tomorrow) **

Appreciate anyone's thoughts, THANKS! 

According to the info in the post I wanted you to look at earlier... http://www.in-gender.com/cs/forums/t/37676.aspx... You would have ovulated around 11am on the 19th... that day you posted. I figure this because you said that your cm shift occured around 11 pm that day. Tamara's post about O+12 says that the cm shift happens at O+12. 

So I think you BD'd at O+20... Which is great! It's last minute, but still in the zone!

It's hard when you have a slow rise! Hopefully you will be able to confirm ov soon so you can forget about pH. Try not to go overboard! You don't wanna kill the little sperms with too much acid- your pH sounds good. If you have to do any more- maybe try a weaker lime mixture to bring it down easy so it doesn't crash below 4 at all.

Good luck! Keep us up to date!

Thank you soooooo much Miraclebeliever.  I did of course read that key O+12 post but I guess I started dwelling on the wrong parts.  Just really really confused me about ovulating 8-48 hrs after 1st opk, which was at 3pm.  But if I shifted at 11 pm and ovulated at 11 am, that would mean I had no notice by the opk, or rather, negative notice (meaning that at 3, it had in fact already happened).  Do people need to take opks hourly or what to really catch it?!  Clearly, my Persona really failed me.  Then the ew glob at 8pm threw me off-- I think I thought my shift was more gradual and that somehow 8 pm could still be o which at least could somewhat jibe with the 3 pm +opk.  Thank goodness for the extra 8 hrs to accommodate so many scenarios.  To think I thought I could have been too early for girl per my TCOYF FAM book!

Although, one other thing that worries me is that I only checked the cm shift again at 11pm after getting the ew glob at 8pm-- technically, if the shift can manifest so suddenly, it could have happened at 9 or 10 pm.   Which would mean BD time could have been at o+21 or o+22.  Did I read somewhere that *technically* the egg lives for actually 24 hrs and so there could be a tiny bit more leeway?  If not, I wonder why those last 4 hrs are no good, perhaps the egg begins to lose quality as it dies...

So it seems that if I did not just miss the window, it could be a really good sway.  sigh ...

I did end up sleeping 6 hrs w/the weaker lime tampon and I'm glad I did b/c of course with the slow rise, my temps only increased by a measly 0.1 this a.m.  To your great points re the ph; I've been trying to take it easy on the CL and everything but it was v unsettling to not have any cm at all to even be able to test ph so who knows!!

I'd love it if you could share your thoughts with me one more time as clearly I am not quite yet seeing the forest thru the trees.  Seems there are not so many of us doing the O+12.  THANKS so much!

Hi Again Gothope! No problem... I know what you mean... I feel alone doing the True O+12. But it's the one way that Tamara truely indorses, So I want to give it a shot. I'm not combining it with any cutoff! And we are going to abstain for over a week. Which is why I call it a True O+12.

I had to read through that link a few times to really grasp it, and it's only through using the knowledge with my practice cycles that I've worked it out.

While others doing a cutoff are stuggling to keep pH low and get rid of EWcm, after an O+12 your pH and CM naturally diminish which is why it is so favorable ttc girl.

I'm not using OPK's. But would it not give the egg symbol at 9am if you didn't ovulate till 11am? and by 3pm you had the symbol which could prove that yes, it was at 11am? I don't know how persona works... I am using a Ov. Microscope though. And I've been taking my temps for years-just on paper- so I'm pretty understanding of my cycles- even though they are sometimes silly. I choose an ov.mic. because it seemed OPKs can get expensive and sometimes be unreliable. But as for myself I don't know because I haven't used them.
Maybe because I haven't used them I am relying more on checking cp and cm? I check my c every day. When it gets really high and open I know I'm close. And when it begins to soften I know to start checking it every hour. The cm shift- I don't completely understand why- but I do know that Tamara has worked it out and she seems to know a whole lot more than any of us. God has given her knowledge and I trust her!

If this cylce doesn't get you preggo then look at it as a good practice! :) and while you wait for your next ov read up and try to really understand it so that you are ready next time. What I hate for you is that you have that slow rise all the time. I have a big rise (99% of the time) so that makes it easier for me to confirm!

As far as why the goodness stops at O+20... ??? I don't know. Your theory is probably correct about loosing quality... and also you can't garauntee that your egg will live right to 24 hours so why push your luck? I think the younger you are the longer it lives. Yeah, you probably do have a bit of leeway- but not a whole bunch.

 I hope this helps! We ought to start a club and help each other out!!! :)

Hi Miraclebeliever!  I definitely think we should keep helping each other out (and, hopefully, others will benefit too).  It seems to me (despite my difficulties.. I wouldn't have tried if I was really really unsure) that O+12 doesn't have to be that hard and it also seems to have the strongest results for TTCG per Tamara et al.  My tune may well change when my husband revolts about the abstinence or we don't get PG but for now, I'd like to try the "True" again. 

So, by way of update, I *still* haven't gotten my rise but fully expect to tomorrow a.m.  I did, however, get a lovely yeast infection which I am debating about how to treat (ok to use Monistat, safe, etc).  I'm sure it's from all the lime (I didn't get a chance to test Replens and lime seemed most effective).  Btw, I found the answer to my question re O+20 thru 24-- we don't get those hours b/c they don't allow the sperm enough time to capitate.

Are you going to use lime? When is your first try? 

Hi Gothope! Yay! We're a True O+12 team!

I agree- I think O+12 is a bit easier than it is made out to be. However it does take a lot of work before hand in learning and figuring out what your body does. Which might be why some can't be bothered working it out- or others don't want to chance missing it- or hubby travels so it's not even applicable. But my cycles are not clockwork at all. Hubby is around all the time. So to me it seems better to see when ov has happened instead of trying to predict when I should cutoff.

On the other hand I also agree that I might change my mind about a True for those same reasons! Hubby won't like the abstinence, and we might not get preggo from it very fast. In addition to those fabulous reasons- this diet is terrible and we've only really been on it for a week (with cheats!) For the past month or so I've been trying to slowly take away our salt etc... I'm going to count today as the real begining. So our 6 week mark is the begining of December and I should be ovulating sometime between then and mid Dec. We going to try then- but my husband is already begging me to stop the diet and we've yet to really start. I feel the diet is also extremely important so I want to wait till we've got our 6 weeks under the belt. But I told hubby if we could get his pH down (it's at a 9 or more!) then we might try in Nov. I'm sure he'll talk me into it. Might not get preggo anyway, right?!

So if we do try in Nov I will probably use the lime douche and stuff. However I'm thinking- if by Dec we can get dh's pH down through diet then I might not need to use lime. And I want to skip it to increase my chances of conceiving.

BTW- so sorry to hear about a yeast infection. That's sucks. Did you find out if Monistat was okay? So with your slow rise- do you usually have a slow rise and then a big jump? and are you waiting for the big jump to make sure that you hit ov? Have you had any more cm or just completely dry?

It's nice to be able to talk to someone about all this because I'm afraid to tell anyone I'm going to all this trouble ttc a girl! They might think I'm crazy! Sometimes I even think I'm crazy for doing it!! hahah!

Sounds like we're on the same page.  Gotta say that the diet oddly seems to get easier once you get in the mindframe.  I put a succinct Yes and No foods summary on the fridge-- that seemed to create pause and help steer us to right decisions.  I pick my battles on it-- for instance, my husband has to have breakfast (which I'm not even sure, the skipping may only be impt for the woman) and I'll let him have a little oatmeal sometimes but he has yogurt too.  Pushing smoothies on him helped also.  But there are moments that are difficult-- like when we went to a rehearsal dinner at Ruths Chris STEAK house.  The best is when we are at home and can control things.  Thanksgiving and Christmas will be super TOUGH so it would be nice to get lucky before then.  Sadly and sort of incredibly, despite my adhering rather strictly, my body doesn't seem to want to actually let go of any weight, but nonetheless, the effect on ph and hormones etc should help things. Just re-read your husband's deal and I have an idea-- why don't you see what the effect on his ph is if he just cuts out the big No's (salt, banana, tomato, red meat, no caffeine), do the Supps (easy enough) and then *pound* Crystal Light?  It might be good enough!

Anyway, *finally* spiked on temp today.  To your question, my slow rise often hovers up and down from where I was for 2-3 days then jump then sometimes even fall back then rise again.  My body's apparent slow reaction on the thermal rise makes me wonder if that's why I don't see super marked shifts in my cervix texture or position, thankfully the CM changes distinctively.  I didn't hear anything back on the monistat and things seem a little better -- if it gets worse tonight I'll do it.  I think the posts I saw where people were really questioning dealing w/it was when it was in the middle of a sway (say for someone BDing all the way thru or doing cut-off or o+12) people were saying the YI could ruin the sway.  I *will* warn you that my ph (and my husband's) was low (at least his was before the abstinence, then couldn't test for obvious reasons) but then I really needed the lime b/c my ph kept going up after our attempt (not super duper high, but out of the ideal range).  This time I will test the effect of Replens on my ph and, if not adverse, go that route.  It seems (but not sure) like less people complain of YI w/replens vs lime.  Have you tested that yet?

And we have something else in common-- I absolutely wouldn't tell anyone the lengths I'm going to.  I think I just wouldn't want them to think it's a huge deal if it doesn't work out.  DH only knows b/c he has to!  And, I guess he already knows I'm crazy.  heh heh.

Ah, Ruths Chris... that would have been pure torture! I've got my birthday and Thanksgiving to deal with this cycle. Then I'll probably have to drop it all (except supps and hopefully the biggies) while my parents and a friend come to stay with us for christmas for a MONTH! We live on a dairy farm so i can get away with 3 glasses of milk a day but the not eating any red meat when the freezer is full of it would be a bit odd. (I wonder if there is any difference in eating a female cow, an old milker, in comparison with eating male beefies?) hmmm... something to research! Probably no diff, but I can wish! It pays to think a female would have less testosterone than a male.

Well, we aren't in the US anymore... we are in New Zealand and we don't have CL here. My hubby HATES aspartame and really doesn't want any of it. (We've always been against it so he is like... is it really worth it???) He is on acidophylus, cranberry and vit C so hopefully that will help). I did get him some caff-free diet coke, which he liked. I know it's not the best- but if i can get a bit of Aspartame in him to help then I'll do what I can.

I have tried lemon when i thought I might have been preggo one cycle (I have a lemon tree)... it did work to lower my pH from a 5, to a low 4 or high 3... I haven't looked for any replens! Ugh... Everything is a fortune over here I've spent so much in Supps- I didn't want to have to buy anything else! I really wanted to lower our pH's through diet instead of needing a douche... I so perfer calling it a rinse, don't you? Douche sounds so derogatory!! HAhaa...

anyway... I've got to go! Let me know how the replens goes... maybe I'll have to fork out the big bucks and get some!

OOO! YOU ARE IN THE 2WW! YEAH! I'll be here waiting to find out the results!! :)

gothope:

And we have something else in common-- I absolutely wouldn't tell anyone the lengths I'm going to.  I think I just wouldn't want them to think it's a huge deal if it doesn't work out.  DH only knows b/c he has to!  And, I guess he already knows I'm crazy.  heh heh.

LOL! You crack me up!

BTW, are you on saw palmetto? or Vitex?

I'm using both, and I was wondering if that's okay to mix...

Vtex to regulate cylces and saw palmetto to lower test, est, and raise prog. Wonder if the saw palmetto might help your temp shift be esier to read?

Sorry so slow to respond!  Had friends in from Europe and lots of other stuff going on-- I have to say, I prized the distraction, annoying as the 2WW can be.  I am now fully realizing I would have to be incredibly lucky to get PG this cycle, esp since I easily could have been later than O+20 and all that lime (RINSE! totally w/you on that LOL)!!  (btw, the YI cleared up after 1 night of the treatment, and I only did 2 nights of it instead of the 3 recommended, I guess not a good idea but oh well).  On the other hand, if I am PG, I can feel good about having done everything possible for girl.

Not on Saw Palmetto or Vitex-- maybe I will pose that question of whether it could help regulate slow risers.. I just avoided anything that the FAQs indicated could be problematic for some people or have adverse reactions.  Was also curious about Lydia Pinkham's.  And one thing I seriously may consider is acijel (not sure if in conjunction with or instead of replens).  Have you heard anything about it?  I just read someone saying that she thinks that is a strong common denominator in many successful recent sways but I know nothing about it.  I'm wondering when is a good time to test the impact of this stuff or replens on ph in any cycle, any thoughts?  Is AF a bad time?  I'd rather wait til after I know I'm not PG to crack open the container cheapo, I mean recessionista, that I am!

ok so I have to tell you after having done more research since my last note that if you invest in one more thing, make it the aci-jel instead of the replens. tamara says it sways better (if it works for you, like replens it could raise your ph) and it sounds like replens has more adverse reactions on people (and, evidently acijel lowers your ph longer!).  FOR YOU especially, it makes great sense b/c guess what?? Seems to only be available in NZ and Australia!!   I just looked everywhere online and it seems to be out of stock for the rest of the world (I think you can get at a regular pharmacist).  boo-frickin-hoo. Anyway, now it is your turn to feel lucky since you can't get other things like CL!  The acijel really sounds great.