Weak sperm/embryos??

My husband and I have two boys that we conceived on the first try.  Two years ago, we decided to try Microsort for a girl.  I got pregnant on my 2nd IUI cycle, but had a miscarriage at 5 1/2 weeks.  Since then, we have tried four more IUI cycles with no luck.  Finally, we decided to try IVF at a local clinic using frozen Microsort sperm as a last attempt.  I had 10 good eggs retrieved, but only 4 fertilized which the doctor said was uncommon since they usually have a 80-90% fertilization rate.  By the time of our transfer, only 3 were viable and of those 2 were rated good.  I ended up with a very low positive beta on day 14, but got my period two days later. 

We're pretty upset and thinking about just trying naturally and seeing what God has in store for us.  

 But my question is this... do you think Microsort weakens the sperm/embryos?  I know many sperm die in the sorting process and then more die when freezing them.  Do you think that is why after having no problems getting pregnant, suddenly I'm having miscarriages?  I see a lot of other members on these boards trying multiple times with either BFN's and/or miscarriages and am just wondering anyone's thoughts?  

I would love to know the answer to this.  My complete non-scientific opinion is that for some sperm the MS and the freezing is just too much for the little guys.  I cycled locally with frozen MS sperm for my first cycle, and got a BFN.  The local doctor just really did not know why it did not work, and half heartedly indicated that it was perhaps either the MS or the freezing or both.  For my second cycle, I chose to go with fresh MS sperm at GIVF, and got a BFP.  I just really don't know, but my instinct tells me that it had to have something to do with all of the manipulation to the sperm.  That or just plain luck. It is interesting to me that with both cycles, I had no embryos make it to freeze.

 I also wanted to add that my BFP with my first cycle was actually a very low first beta that went down with the second beta. 

I wish I knew the answer to this, too.  I conceived my two boys naturally and without too much difficulty.  Got pg on the first try with MS/IUI and m/c at 11 weeks (missed m/c at 8 wks.)  Then, BFN on fresh SET, then another m/c at 5 weeks after an FET.  When I did get pg on my next fresh IVF cycle, I lost a twin at 8 weeks, the result was my singleton who is 5 months old now.  Would I have had all of these m/c's anyway had I tried to concieve naturally?  Will never know, but I doubt it.  I think someday there will be more answers to this.

In my humble opinion, i think that yes, MS is very hard on sperm.  I think that some samples react fine to it, but many just don't.  My Dh's sperm was one that did not.  we tried an IUI with MS in July and even though he had a good sample that qualified just fine, they ended up having literally nothing left alive to put back in.  It was so disapointing for me at the time...but it led us to a place where we are doing IVF instead, and i'm feeling much better about our chances that way anyway.  Anyway, I wish you luck...maybe consider trying IVF/PGD without MS and see if you have a better result.

HMC

yes, MS is alot on the sperm, if you can, do fresh MS...

I don't know if it does or not but certainly different men's sperm can be affected differently.  With that many BFN's and the poor fertilization, I would take your chances with just PGD or go use a fresh sample.  It looks like it obviously does affect his sample negatively.  I am so sorry that you have tried and tried and come up short.  It is heartbreaking.

First of all I'm sorry this has been such a long, hard road for you so far.  I sincerely hope your persistence pays off.  As far as MS goes, I really think it depends on the individual, and sometimes on the luck of the cycle.  We've done one MS/IUI and one MS/IVF/PGD.  For our IUI we had 5 big follicles and didn't get pg.  For our IVF cycle we did MS and 2 probe PGD and had 7 great looking female embryos at the end of the cycle.  I'm not sure if it worked yet (still in the 2ww) but it seemed that MS worked fine for us at least the second time around.  We also had a really poor X sort with the IUI of only 67%.  For our second cycle, I don't know our sort percentage yet, but out of 11 embryos one was undetermined gender and the other 10 were girls, so I'd say from a sort percentage perspective the MS definitely worked!

I definitely think using fresh MS sperm is the only way to go.  Some have had success with frozen MS sperm, but in my opinion, it's just another thing that can go wrong for you.  Why chance it if you don't have to.  I was really skeptical of using MS for our IVF cycle after we had such a poor sort and outcome on our IUI cycle, but it worked really well for us the second time around.  I'm not sure why, since my husband's numbers were all much better going in to the first sort.  Hope that helps - good luck!

PinkPrayers4me:

do you think Microsort weakens the sperm/embryos?  

YES! Flow cytometry weakens sperm and LOWERS pg rates...this has been shown in animal studies

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/dairyrepro/documents/RoadShow2005SexRatio.pdf (pp. 21-28)

My vote would be to use FRESH MS sperm whenever possible.   However, I can see that if given no choice frozen or nothing that you have to do what you have to do....  Is there any possiblility of you doing another cycle but with FRESH MS sperm?   It  just seems logical to me that MS sorted sperm and then freezing just cannot compare in quality to something that is fresh especially given how difficult it is to get pregnant by IVF without even adding in MS sperm.  I am sorry things did not work out and I hope whichever route you go next you get your girl!!!  TJ

I think in general there is a large number of abmormal embryos period- whether conceiving 'naturally" or not.  Thats why there are so many women that miscarry- nature's way of survival of the fittest.  That just gets heightened when we mess around with nature...  I had 18 eggs retrieved and 16 fertilized.  Of those only 6 made it through PGD.  Probably because they were abnormal....

MS does slow the sperm down, that is pretty well known around here. We have seen greater success with fresh MS sperm, in that we see higher fert rates with fresh than frozen MS sperm.

In my situation, and many others, the biggest factor on embie quality is the protocol you are on. It causes poor quality eggs, thus poor embies. I have no idea how your follie growth was during your stim cycle, but it would be worth asking about. In that, look at how your e2 levels rose, did you follies grow "congruently" , which means did you have a couple of lead follies, or did all the follies grow at the same rate at the same time? 

I would ask those questions, and see what sort of modifications they would make on your next cycle before making a firm decision. For me, a different protocol, with a higher amount of FSH throughout the cycle was the key.

Good luck, and sorry for the BFN

 Wow I am so sorry you went through that!  I would also look at the timing of your IUI.  I am very curious to see how many hours after the trigger shot were your IUI's done.  Recently that seems to be a factor as well.  I also agree with CC to see what your follicle sizes were and your E2 levels during your IVF cycles but I would also be interested in knowing how big your follicles were when you triggered.

Good luck going the natural way and I am so sorry about your BFN's.  That had to be tough!

Michaela:

I would also look at the timing of your IUI.  I am very curious to see how many hours after the trigger shot were your IUI's done. 

Good idea!  I bet you anything she was triggered way too soon.... which if this is the case only serves to bolster my assertion that Microsort sperm cannot live for more than a few short hours (4-6) and not 24 hrs like they claim.

hi, i'm so sorry.

maybe you could try ivf/ms to see if it's different for you?

praying for you!! GL!

i think Charlie Cats post is really helpful!